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" As the law currently stands (except in California and Massachusetts), Bob can marry Sue, but Ellen cannot marry Sue. Therefore, Bob has a right that Ellen does not. It's also true that Ellen can marry George while Bob cannot, and that therefore Ellen has a (different) right that Bob does not. But those are separate acts of discrimination. They do not cancel and make everything fair; they add, and make the situation doubly unfair.

I know it is weird to view it that way, and I sympathize, for it has taken me, a middle-aged liberal, a lifetime to realize it, but as odd as it seems, it is actually true.
Suppose, in some very unlikely scenario, heterosexual marriage was prohibited, while homosexual marriage was permitted. Would anyone still be saying that everyone had equal rights and that no one's rights were being denied? Imagine being unable to marry the person you loved merely because you were of a different sex from them. And imagine the frustration you would experience as you saw same-sex couples free to marry merely because they shared the same gender.

Or, even more oddly, imagine a society in which everyone could marry whom they please as long as the spouse did not share the same first initial. In a trivial sense, the law is fair to everyone, since it does not single out any class of people and it applies equally to everyone. But it is patently unfair in any profound sense, for it means that Joe cannot marry Janet while Tom can. Change "first initial" to "gender" and you have the current situation in 48 states.
These are (deliberately) weird and ridiculous examples, but they are used to show the logic of the situation. It's not just a matter of decency toward others (although it certainly is that); it's also a matter of liberty and justice for all. "

" Yes. See 7/31 4:32pm post "

" Do you have a positive argument to make? It seems like you're just interested in trying to discredit individual statements made here with cherry-picked and somewhat dated studies and quotes.

There are, incidentally, studies which show no significant differences between children raised in gay vs. straight families. But you didn't think to include them, now did you? "

" re:Dr. Kate, the APA did change their definition of homosexuality being a disorder in 1973, but did that change occur because of new research or studies? No. Not at all. It was changed due to pressure from the growing homosexual lobbyists. And I suspect the burgeoning pc movement also had a hand in that change. Hmmm, changing definitions, sound familiar?!

re:TAOP, Quote:They were united in 2000 they had the child in 2002 and they split in 2003! I think the court ruling was correct!

Yeah, that sounds about right... "A study in the Netherlands, a gay-tolerant nation that has legalized homosexual marriage, found the average duration of a homosexual relationship to be one and a half years.8

8 Maria Xiridou, et al, "The Contribution of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV Infection among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam," AIDS 17 (2003): 1031.


BTW - The same Dutch study found that "committed" homosexual couples have an average of eight sexual partners (outside of the relationship) per year"

But there is no psychological harm done to kids of homosexual "parents", right?

How about physical - "homosexual and lesbian couples experience by far the highest levels of intimate partner violence compared with married couples as well as cohabiting heterosexual couples.10
Lesbians, for example, suffer a much higher level of violence than do married women.11

10 "Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence," U.S. Department of Justice: Office of Justice Programs (July, 2000): 30. Cp. "Violence Between Intimates," Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings, November 1994, p. 2.
11 Ibid."

I also love all these comments from all the "open-minded", "tolerant" liberal "thinkers", saying that this letter should not even be allowed to be published and the lady who wrote it such a hateful, bigoted person. Typical.
"In their 1989 book, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the '90s, homosexual activists Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen presented a strategy for achieving the full acceptance of homosexuality in American culture. Kirk and Madsen write: "In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector."

Once again, using the Christian philosophy of tolerance, against those very same Christians. A common tactic used in the homosexual agenda. And yes, there is a homosexual agenda.
Only one example:Paula Ettelbrick, former legal director of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, who unabashedly states: "Being que#r means pushing the parameters of sex, sexuality, and family, and ... transforming the very fabric of society."35

35 Paula Ettelbrick, quoted in "Since When is Marriage a Path to Liberation?" by William B. Rubenstein, Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Law (New York: The New Press, 1993), pp. 398, 400.

Ha ha. That's funny. It wouldn't even let me use the word "que#r" in that statement I quoted.
But no, there's no political correctness problem, is there.
Can't say it surprises me here though. "

" Legal discrimination is an oxymoron. Discrimination is a legal term. By definition, discrimination is illegal. Homosexual and heterosexual people are treated the same under the law. Both have the right to get married, and are subject to the same restrictions and privileges regarding such. "Couples" have no inherent rights. "Individuals" do. What you are suggesting are special, as opposed to equal, rights. "

" Homosexual relationships do not get in the way of family values or the development of a healthy child. A parent, despite their sexual orientation, loves and cares for their children and raises them the best they can. The moral fiber of an individual and their ability to raise a child is rarely questioned when a heterosexual single parent enters into a relationship, so why is this the case with homosexual parents? Most parents would not bring an individual into their child's life unless they felt that they were safe, decent, and an overall good person. The child involved in this particular situation was affected because an adult who loved and cared for them was no longer part of their life; it has no reflection of the sexual orientation of the parent- when a family situation changes, it is hard on all family members. And everyone can agree that the best environment for children is one that promotes tolerance and understanding; encouraging them to accept and respect all people, despite their differences

As a society we find ourselves at a crossroad- one direction leads equality and the other leads to legalized discrimination- and despite religious affiliation, the direction in which we must take is clear. Homosexual and heterosexual couples must be treated the same under the law in order to abide by the principles on which this country was created and to move forward as a society.

Sincerely,
Students For A Fair Wisconsin, UW-Eau Claire "

" I don't believe those that did these terrible things were true Christians. I could call myself a Mormon, and do unspeakable things in the name of Mormonism. That wouldn't make me a Mormon. Nor would it mean my acts were representative of Mormon beliefs. "

" Speaking as a Mormon, I can assure you that 'true Christians' did more than just talk mean. They attacked and killed MANY men, women and children they perceived to be heretics during the 1830s-1850s (Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun's_Mill_massacre). So, do I believe it when 'true Christians' on this board simply call us names? Are they 'leg-it'? OH YES...and given power and the control of gov't, deadly. "

" Sorry-I just don't buy it. I have never met any true Christians who actually talk like this...now all of a sudden "two?" show up? My vote-not legit. "

" Why do you assume the writers aren't "leg-it"? I've met a few fundamentalist Christians that make these writers look mild. "

" You are kidding, right?? I know many a "Christian" who is "uppity" and MEAN. Plain and simple, we are all sinner's and no one is perfect. One would only expect that homosexual relationships would have problems just as heterosexuals. "

" You're just messing with us, right? It doesn't aound like you are even a Christian. Correct? "

" I agree that it is a difficult situation and share your concern for the child. Hopefully a bit of confusion is the worst that will come out of this unfortunate situation. That said, none of it has anything to do with whether gay marriage should be legal or not. Kids face all kinds of tough family situations. And nobody responds by trying to make heterosexual marriage illegal. "

" What in the woled would lead this pathetic little rag of a newspaper to post the junk it does on this blog but censor out other posts.I mean just read the last several and you might vomit. "

" That is so true about unsaved people being so ungrateful...and potty mouths! A similar situation happened when our church was going door-to-door with the gospel. We ran across this Catholic family. We knew they were Catholic the minute the opened the door because of the cheap, gawdy furniture encased in plastic wrap with statues of Mary and others cluttering up the living room. We told them, in the nicest, Christian way we knew how, that graven images are an abomination unto the Lord. And we concluded that we (and Jesus) love them as people, but hated their abominable behavior (you know, love the sinner...hate their sin). Long story short, they had been drinking before we arrived (they were Irish Catholic...need I say more), and we barely escaped. To conclude, yes the unsaved can be real uppity and violent, but Jesus will have the last word on Judgement Day. Glory! "

" I know exactly what you mean about Christian-phobes. Just the other day, I told a Mormon-heretic (and 4 of his 12 children) that God has called them all ACCURSED (Galatians 1:8,9). Why, you should have heard all the foul, anti-Christian language they used! 3 of the children gave me the finger! This country is literally full of Christian-haters. "

" If I'm not corret, you are confussed. "

" If I read this corret, the frien of Lisa's who is not related biologically or leagally to this young child and has had no contact with her for five years now wants visitation. How will the two adults explain this to the child? I would think that it would be very confusing to her. It is not like they could say, 'here is your dad that has not been in your life' How will the child explain this to her friends? Is someone looking out for her(the childs) best interest? I know this is a hot topic and everyone thinks they are right, but I am worried about the child who has no say and will be confussed. "

" The only hatred I've seen being spewed is toward Mr. King!

Christo-phobes indeed! "

" The language of the letter is the thing that's truly paranoid and perceiving of conspiracy. I mean, statements like: "more and more children will become severely traumatized" is about as paranoid as you can get. Not to mention baseless, fear-mongering and unprovable.

It's unfortunate that this woman twists Christianity the way she does. Christianity's basic messages are about love, not pointing a judgemental finger or condemning others who are different. "

" If ever there was more evidence of why after 28 years of living in Tomah I remain convinced it is a mean nasty little crap hole of a town this Tomah urinal web site blog says it all. "

" I took your statements regarding "gay marriage opponents"(of which I am aware of none) "struggling to find harm" and your perception that the letter makes it seem as if "a gay mob is victimizing a child" as very paranoid and conspiracy-theory like. "

" I never said anything about a vast conspiracy. If anything the conspiratorial tone is in the letter with its language like:

"This is just a drop of venom from the bucket of the militant homosexuals agenda"

That's the real conspiracy theory... "

" Dr Kate OHanlan: "Laws should not be based on personal or religious ideas." Priceless. "

" So, you are a part of the tin foil hat crew who is absolutely convinced of this vast conspiracy to keep gays from marrying? Yes, there is a group of people scanning news stories just so they can put their own spin on it. Sure. Now, if you were to point out that there are people who oppose same-sex marriage, you would sound a lot more reasonable. But last I checked, gays have the same rights regarding marriage as anyone else. "

" If you scroll through the posts, you will find your answer. Someone asked why does anyone care one way or the other about same sex marriage. Another person responded that they don't wish to financially support a lifestyle they find immoral. So, as is commom with any article, the comments explored another aspect of the issue discussed. "

" 2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we faint not:

2Co 4:2 but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. "

" I now join the ranks of those who have read the rants of Chris King and have made the choice to believe he is the devil, working to turn believers into non-believers.

If being a Christian is based on Chris King's preachings, I'll have no part of it.

In fact, we could likely trade him for world peace by offering him to those who hate American's so much. "

" This letter should not have appeared in the Tomah Journal to begin with -- not a local citizen, not a worthwhile editorial. However, one could believe that they do it just to incite the idiotic ramblings that go on here -- negative press is better than none at all. Or, they just like giving CK a chance to prove how ridiculous he is. "

" Hateful, judgmental, and definitely NOT Jesus like letter. "

" I would like to know what made you all start talking about tax? All people ever think about is money! This article does not even have the word Tax in it! You people need to realize there are more important things than money in this world, like the child!

As for the writer of this article!! Shame on you!!!

Next time you would like to report on something and inform. Inform correctly!! Anyone who wants to know the whole story just type in the name Janet Jenkins in any search!

As to my opinion on the situation! They were "united" they had a child, artificial or not, they had it as a couple together! They are equal partners in that childs life! Janet Jenkins is not as you put it a "step-parent." They were united in 2000 they had the child in 2002 and they split in 2003! I think the court ruling was correct!

The whole story from begining to end.......

http://www.usatoday.com/community/tags/topic.aspx?req=tag&tag=Janet+Jenkins "

" This is a ludicrous letter, fully of deliberately inflammatory language: "viscious attack," "traumatized," etc. and a skewed perspective designed to make it look like a gay mob is victimizing a child.

The child may indeed be going through a difficult experience, but gay marriage has nothing to do with it. This is no different than the suffering that many children go through as a result of heterosexual custody battles, ambiguous parentage, etc.

Gay marriage opponents struggle to find any proof of the alleged 'harm' that such unions might cause, so they've now taken to wildly inflating unrelated situations and generalizing from them. It would be like concluding that heterosexual marriage is in itself harmful because some woman had to provide joint custody to her ex boyfriend who acted as the child's co-parent for years.

Pure silliness. "

" I hate to break it to you, but every single one of our laws are based on personal and/or religious ideas. "

" Indeed, I don't advocate having gay peoples tax dollars pay for my life. Nor, would I oppose you if you petitioned the Government to not use your tax dollars to help fund something you find immoral. I simply ask the same consideration from you. "

" Typically, people who don't have the facts on their side or are incapapble of articulating their position resort to name calling. With that in mind, I refer you to your 11:19am post. Regarding your post at 11:13am, no, I do not force or advocate forcing homosexuals to pay for same sex marriage either. "

" Very well said! I agree 100%! "

" Chris King:

You are a complete moron! Education, indeed ... You spout every uneducated, illiterate, illogical, and inaccurate meme floating around this issue. Grow up, you big jerk! "

" "Just don't ask me to help pay for it or endorse it with my tax dollars."

Like you force every homosexual to do? We pay taxes, too, you know ...

Fair enough? "

" Our laws are based on our societies views of right and wrong, mores, customs, etc... When the "scientific experts" and there "official science" is still challenged by many, many professionals in the respective fields, you cannot base laws upon it.

Furthermore, anyone that has ever learned of the story behind the movement to remove homosexuality from the DSM knows that it's removal happened within an extremely politically charged atmosphere. Therefore, it is understood that homosexuality being declassified as abnormal has more to do with politics than objective science! "

" from To Trinni: "Just don't ask me to help pay for it or endorse it with my tax dollars. Fair enough? Stay out of my life, I will stay out of yours."

Interesting. In some ways that would be "fair enough" - except that you define as unfair having your tax dollars "paying for" someone else's marriage. But oddly, you don't advocate having gay people's tax dollars "pay for" yours.

So "stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours" means "I get whatever I want with the full support of the law, and you get nothing."

Fair enough? Hardly. And that is the whole point. Nobody is asking you to "endorse" anything, any more than Catholics are "endorsing" remarriage of divorced people, and so on.

What you are asked to "endorse" is full citizenship for all citizens, and an odd little concept called "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How are you doing on those? "

" Please allow a few facts from America's expert medical associations to sway your thinking. The American Psychiatric Association has confirmed that sexual orientation is natural, biologically induced, morally neutral, immutable, neither contagious nor learned, and has no relation to an individuals ability to form deep and lasting relationships, to parent children, to work, or to contribute to society. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, and the American Psychiatric Association have all endorsed civil marriage for same sex couples because marriage strengthens the mental and physical health and the longevity of couples, and provides greater legal and financial security for children, parents, and seniors. When Americas premier child and mental health associations and their expert panels endorse marriage equality, there is thus no ethical reason in the world for any person or any law to discriminate against gay people and their children. Laws should not be based on personal or religious ideas. "

" I'm sad to see that religious bigotry is still alive and well. However, I do agree with her letter that Jesus died for our sins, but did she know that he told all that would hear him to live as he did, hence the name Christian (a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.). To be honest, I am far more radical on my belief of the importance of a religious marriage, the she is. We should protect the sanctity of marriage all marriages, and instead of worrying about a gay couple we should worry about the divorce rate of almost 50% of the good Christian homes in our country. If I could, I would outlaw divorce for any reason except as permitted in the bible. As a good Christian does she agree with me on this. Remember it was Jesus that when confronted with a women employed in prostitution (a mortal sin) told the crowd 'let him without sin cast the first stone'. Yes Jesus often referred to the law, and the need for man to live according to the law, in case she forgot them they are called The 10 commandments, and when asked which is the most important commandment said, and the greatest of these is love, yes we are to love one another. Jesus never said, love everyone EXCEPT FOR. Like many, she has forgotten the most important lessons Jesus gave us in his teaching, his suffering and death and resurrection. I will pray for her to receive Gods grace of an understanding/loving heart. "

" So did she have her daughter before or after their partnership? I guess I don't really understand it. Wouldn't the other lady be treated as a step parent would then? or did she have this child while she was together with this other woman? I'd like to read the whole story.. "

" Three Words - GAY TAX PROTEST

http://gaytaxprotest.blogspot.com/ "

" Hey, so they have the same problems as "married" couples. Big deal. "

" To whomever screens these comments...

Chose to post this or not, but what criteria do you use when you decide whether to post a comment?

What was it about my comment on the morning of 7/22 that made you decide you couldn't post it?

It was not derogatory or offensive. What's the deal? "

" Just google Janet Jenkins and it pops up under The Washington Post. This article contains no pro or anti gay marriage sentiment, just what the story is ...

It's more complicated than one would think by reading this page.

It's the Gay-rights activists and the Christian Conservatives who are actually making it ugly, by turning it into a political debate.

The real issue to me seems to be what to do about a "married" couple who choose artificial insemination.

I personally think if this were a heterosexual couple, it was artificial insemination, and the "father" had not been able to see the child in five years, it would still be a tough decision for the courts. "

" I'm appalled at the editorial staff for allowing this through.

Not only does this fail to express any original thought, since she is just reciting a recent newsletter, but Lydia writes,

"This is just a drop of venom from the bucket of the militant homosexuals agenda against our Christian faith and roots."

While I'm sure Lydia believes that gay civil rights are 'venomous,' I'm also sure she would think it unfair if this paper printed a letter suggesting women are the root of original sin. Why? Because it's a non-starter for public discourse and legitimate debate, just like Lydia's beliefs about gay people.

The Editors of the Journal have failed at their jobs in finding something both interesting and newsworthy. This letter is neither. "

" The issue isn't gay marriage. Gays have the same rights and restrictions as anyone else regarding marriage. No one is trying to stop gays from marrying. The issue is same-sex marriage. And, yes, there is a difference. "

" In fact, Janet IS related to Isabella. Under Vermont law, she is Isabella's mother and Lisa's spouse.

Lisa is trying to duck her legal responsibilities, which she pledged to accept, by denying this innocent child the right to see her beloved (and legal) mother.

If marriage is a religious institution, then why does the religious official say "By the power vested in my by the State..." instead of "...vested in me by god"?

By the power of the State of Vermont, Janet and Isabella are mother and daughter. "

" In what way? "

" Yeah, because I do nothing but perpetuate hate, right. The fact is that the predominant form of hate that is seen on these discussion boards is hate for anyone that has the audacity to stand up against an agenda that seeks to fundamentally alter the institution of marriage!

As for the individual that states, "education is key," I would agree with you. Education that explains how the homosexual lifestyle damages the mental and physical health of those that practice it would be a good place to start.

Let's not assume that because someone holds traditional values and logic that they are less educated, enlightened or intelligent the you.

The fact is that those pushing same-sex marriage started this battle. We don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, but frankly it was none of our business how you chose to live YOUR life. However, when you crossed the line into the territory of attempting to FORCE us to endorse your unhealthy lifestyle you crossed a line for MOST Americans!

Another fact is that the Church itself bares the brunt of the blame in this controversy. HOW DARE THOSE THAT CLAIM TO DO GOD'S WORK ALLOW THE WORD OF OUR FATHER TO BE TRAMPLED ON AND WATERED DOWN. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON YOU FOR DISREGARDING THE FATHER'S PLAN FOR US. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON YOU FOR FAILING TO HELP THOSE TRAPPED IN THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY BY HOLDING UP THE MIRROR OF GOD'S WORD, SO THEY CAN SEE FOR THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE SINFUL CREATURES. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON CULTURAL CHRISTIANS THAT CHASTISE TRUE CHRISTIANS FOR ATTEMPTING TO UPHOLD GODLY STANDARDS. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME INDEED!

"If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." - Jesus, our Father "

" What utter nonsense! The only hatred and venom has been against homosexuals and same sex marriage by vile people hiding behind the mask of Christianity. Those of us who are REAL Christians have no problem with two people loving each other and wanting legal marriage. The true abomination is those who have usurped our faith for the evil agenda of hate. I believe they will face a judgment some day for their hate and blasphemy. "

" Simply because you quote some 200 year old book doesn't make what it says the law or even the truth.There are other books that other peple hpld sacred. "

" Dear Lydia, please do as Jesus COMMANDS...and SHUT UP!!!!! "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34,35) AND "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (I Timothy 2:12). As "true Christians", we must follow the Bible literally, now matter how racist, sexist, or homophobic it may APPEAR. "

" You expect trinni and the rest of us to help pay for and endorse your beliefs with our taxes. Typical. "

" You are not the silent moral majority. You're the loud, nasty hateful minority. You should be ashamed of yourself for pretending to speak for decent people. I'm a decent person, and you certainly don't speak for me. Shame, shame, shame on you, you hateful "Christian". "

" There will always be people against equality. Education is key. Marriage is a basic civil right that should be attainable by all Americans if they choose. For those who are uncomfortable with gay marriage check out our short produced to educate & defuse the controversy. It has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issue: www.OUTTAKEonline.com "

" It's nice to see the bigoted Christo-phobes rear their ugly, "morality is subjective" hate filled rants right off the bat! "

" Maybe this nation does still have a silent moral majority. It is about time we start to become a little louder!

Thank You Ms. Chorpening! "

" Do what you want behind closed doors. Just don't ask me to help pay for it or endorse it with my tax dollars. Fair enough? Stay out of my life, I will stay out of yours. "

" Get your religion out of my life! "